Cleric Issues (personal taste potentially)

DoomRabbit

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So I purchase the game after falling in love with it, and flounce around with the Cleric for quite awhile. Threw a ton of stuff into my vault for my companions, but I've noticed some issues with the cleric as a class as a whole.:

Mana -
Seriously rare methods to regen mana. Without simply using my restores, my mana dives down fast enough that it is more beneficial for me to skip healing myself in favor of using my other skills, and relying on potions to heal myself just like I would on any other class. For 'Mages' I see this as a fairly major detriment, however I assume they do vastly more damage than the cleric (just like other classes already do... yes I'm lazy and wait to see new things when they are released instead of watching constantly shifting forums.)

That said, I do less damage than the other classes to even Undead... the only true benefit I've got as a cleric.

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Items -
Both the Rogue and the Warrior have class specific items (or in the warrior's case can simply use all of yours save one or two), but the Cleric has one that is ALMOST class specific... and it drops off of The Abbot. You know, the horrid demon lich demigod thing... that Warriors can use too. Neat that there is a sword for the Cleric, but really it's a status symbol. If you can beat your way through the Abbey, you don't need it.

Armor is the same way. Warriors are intensely tough (even considering the Cleric passive, the active has the same issue listed under Mana), Rogues are heavy on special armor abilities. The Blessed Platemail ultimately gives you another heal, or a couple of more spells... while not being as tough as armor a warrior can Buy, and not as utilitarian as rogues can simply buy... and you can only buy two pieces of Blessed Plate, the rest you dredge from the Mausoleum (The Abbey is not the place to try to farm pieces.) Basically your End Game armor for the cleric is a middle ground armor, mildly tailored to a caster, but vastly under balanced.

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Spell Synergy -
'Get slightly tougher, kill skeletons' Best summary I've got to summarize the overall synergy of the current cleric skill set. An almost Undead specific Nuke, a damage boost that's outclassed by both other classes, a very expensive heal that requires you to either stat focus for casting and not melee or abandon it, and a neat trick that postpones death by one hit (sometimes saves you for time to pop a potion). However - a wizard like detection, and advanced skills that makes no sense for them right now (bloodlust and duel), etc leaves you choosing a path with the cleric - melee half-tank or Tanky Caster. The first option is fairly viable, the second is basically worthless. Sadly the first option is out shined by a Warrior in every respect... except once again against Undead. Other advanced skills aid your troubles, but not enough to truly change the fact that the other classes simply out perform you.

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Conclusion -
With a lack of an Alignment System (there is room for one, 90% of the interactions with NPCs leave viable Good, Neutral, and Evil choices), the Cleric is an Undead Killing Bot. Without the ability to share items cross characters, the Cleric can farm for the Cleric, and the rest of the game is a punishing wasteland devoid of anything for them to bother with. They perform against undead exceptionally well, but lack in every other aspect of the world. Looking at the still closed parts of the map, the ports - ice lands - etc, one assumes that most expansionary content is not going to be undead focused (especially as the opening story leans a different direction) and the cleric will become obsolete completely. An alignment system would allow a toning down on the absolute Undead focus, and grant the ability to perform a bit better against, say Evil or Good (depending on character alignment), which then broadens their capabilities in the game as a whole.

(Sorry for the lack of formatting - on my phone. Will format the post when I get home.)
 

DoomRabbit

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GenerousWolf":28bpcyvt said:
Have you tried going cleric guild? One of the passive advanced skills give you Mana points Everytime you kill an undead or outsider monster.

Covered that. Does nothing when dealing with most of the game.
 

DavidBVal

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I was considering Retribution granting mana always, for enemies that are at least certain level, and twice that for undead. But it might be too much and might require some testing.
 

DoomRabbit

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DavidBVal":19kh3fa6 said:
I was considering Retribution granting mana always, for enemies that are at least certain level, and twice that for undead. But it might be too much and might require some testing.

Against swams (ex: Mausoleum South West infinite spawn) the cleric would become an immovable object, able to stand and take punishment forever. Against boss mobs, however, they will deplete themselves as quickly as they already do. In Multiplayer this would make them only useful as power levelers up until roughly level 9-10 (I don't know of any large swarms beyond my example, at least I have found none.), and ultimately they would merely gain survivability without requiring the potion popping they currently do.

That said, they would need to kill 9 mobs (assuming level 2 Retribution) for every heal they wish to use (assuming they specced for healing.) Against mobs lower than they are, they would be able to stand and deliver like they already do... however in Single Player this would not aid them against boss monsters at all. They would remain at their current capacity in that respect.

This still leaves their early levels being rough, and being "lesser-than" warriors in both tanking and damage. I could see that being functional at mid/high levels, but only for grinding... does not serve them well against big baddies. In my opinion, that was what I assumed you designed the cleric FOR. Ungodly tank against the average foe, and supportive, with some damage dealing capacity, once Multiplayer hit.

Sadly, like the Cleric of Everquest, Priest of WoW, Embracer Lineage 2, Skysong of Jade Dynasty, etc etc etc... the Cleric concept really needs a reliable partner/companion to buff and support, while flinging a bit of pain over their head. This version of a Cleric is reminiscent of a Paladin from most RPGs/MMOs, but often a paladin has much the same martial capability as a warrior, but trades offensive skills for defensive. Currently our Cleric does this with their skills, hence why they do less damage than Rogue and Warrior... but their gear doesn't keep up.

Personally, while the mana issue is huge for Caster Clerics, the Gear is the issue for Crusader/Paladin clerics. They have the capacity to choose either path, due to the soft level cap, but neither path has truely viable options currently. It's easier to farm gold and pop pots on a warrior, and walk around with Hirge... because you become her reliable partner/companion.
 

DoomRabbit

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Might I recommend the ability to cast some of their buffs on their companions? This allows a Caster Cleric properly function, as well as the Melee Cleric continues forward with your already planned item alterations.

Also - concerning making 2h weapons more Cleric Friendly... does anyone else think Hammer or Mace and shield when you think cleric? Just me?
 

taldriel

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DavidBVal":2olpzeie said:
On next update I'll remake Sacred Fire into a more scalable power with greater range, and also include options for 2H weapons being more effective for clerics.

Have you tried the Guardian Wolf skill? in my own tests, if you manage to keep the ice wolf alive it is a huge source of DPS. For high mana builds, of course.


The Iie wolf is a great source of dps, the problem is cooldown, considering the wolf remains in lvl 12 (has low defense) dies quickly in higher levels, perhaps you could reduce the cooldown to make it more viable to use it. Or I suggest maybe do it scalable with lvl (for higher life) and lower dps to balance.


DavidBVal":2olpzeie said:
I was considering Retribution granting mana always, for enemies that are at least certain level, and twice that for undead. But it might be too much and might require some testing.

the problem maybe gonna be the skill intervention, because a cleric can be inmortal with a 2h weapon is kill enemies quick.


Contradicting a little, I don't think the cleric need more dps with 1h or 2h for the moment with intervention and buffs I think it is very viable to play as melee.
 

DoomRabbit

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"Contradicting a little, I don't think the cleric need more dps with 1h or 2h for the moment with intervention and buffs I think it is very viable to play as melee."


Yeah yeah formatting... I think that might be my issue. Hence the statement that it could be personal taste. Right now it doesn't FEEL like a Cleric. But it also doesn't FEEL like a paladin or crusader either. It's some weird, uncomfortable midway point that relies entirely on very limited skill choices. Limited in the aspect that they either eschew their cleric roots and go Warrior Pseudopaladin, or they are some sort of druid with a pet wolf, or they just flop.

It's almost like they were designed with the idea of Prestige Classes at one time in the future (so does the rogue).
 

taldriel

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DoomRabbit":o4so0bvz said:
"Contradicting a little, I don't think the cleric need more dps with 1h or 2h for the moment with intervention and buffs I think it is very viable to play as melee."


Yeah yeah formatting... I think that might be my issue. Hence the statement that it could be personal taste. Right now it doesn't FEEL like a Cleric. But it also doesn't FEEL like a paladin or crusader either. It's some weird, uncomfortable midway point that relies entirely on very limited skill choices. Limited in the aspect that they either eschew their cleric roots and go Warrior Pseudopaladin, or they are some sort of druid with a pet wolf, or they just flop.

It's almost like they were designed with the idea of Prestige Classes at one time in the future (so does the rogue).

agree with that
 

Xen

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IMHO what the Cleric lack is the multiplier for active skills, Warrior's Two-Handed Mastery and Rogue's Stab has the formula to scale with character's level but for Clerics it is always flat, fixed numbers. Heal Wounds is getting obsolete in higher level areas and the cooldown for it is also bad especially during boss battles. I'm not against the idea of Cleric having lesser DPS and raw damage because Cleric role is mostly support, but given the situation the companion doesn't help much in damage except for Adaon during tough fights. What really shines as a Cleric is the Battle Prayer skill, it helps a lot because it can make companions better given that advanced skills for them isn't implemented yet.
 

Xen

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As for equipment, I like the idea of Holy Helm having resistance to Lightning damage and higher mana bonus. My suggestion is to add other pieces of Holy equipment just like the Myrosian Armor parts for Warrior. As for Maces, the synergy to Cleric's passive skills is lacking, passives of Cleric is better when paired with light weapons(hammers and daggers) but we all know that those weapons isn't having a good option for elemental variety. If 2-handed Maul will get a boost might as well add the Mace to the list.
 

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